Category: nutrition (31.5.2016)
Huhu, I'm just reading the book "Overcoming the logic of fat" and the author clearly says that the starvation mode is a myth. How do you feel about it?
|ColourBu ...|| ||31.5.2016, 11:41 |
I totally agree.
|G315t|| ||31.5.2016, 11:46 |
I see it differently.
|wombatz|| ||31.5.2016, 11:54 |
I think there are several factors that need to be considered.
|UluKai|| ||31.5.2016, 11:57 |
The "fat logic" is THE Bible for all obese people and the author is a saint and goddess. She is right.
|Lena38|| ||31.5.2016, 12:08 |
UluKai, you couldn't have said it better ;-)
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|Whatever|| ||31.5.2016, 12:24 |
Ulukai .... irony or serious? ;-)
|polyamide|| ||31.5.2016, 12:24 |
I think the way you write that one has to say that your statement is not true. But I also read the book and I think you're simplifying too much here. Rather, I would say that the hunger metabolism is a phenomenon torn out of context, which on the one hand is greatly overestimated and is certainly not transferable to severely overweight people. I think that's what the author wants to say too ...
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|Whatever|| ||31.5.2016, 12:31 |
1. I'm only on page 50 ;-)
2. Yes, I mean this basic paranoia, which says that if you have eaten less for a few days, you immediately go into starvation mode. she says quite clearly that starvation mode only occurs when the KFA of a woman is <5% and that over a rather long period of time. It is clear that the metabolism adapts a little. but here, too, she says, not in the area worth mentioning
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|redchaos|| ||31.5.2016, 13:09 |
The adjustment for longer diets below the basal metabolic rate is between 10 and 15% below what would be normal for the respective weight etc.
For some it is not worth mentioning, for others it is.
It is clear that this is not a life-threatening starvation mode.
But neither is it nothing.
|MiMij|| ||31.5.2016, 13:55 |
Maybe the following will help you:
|UluKai|| ||31.5.2016, 14:22 |
It also depends on how you look at what a "normal" metabolism is.
Isn't the "starvation metabolism" normal and what we perceive as "normal" metabolism is perhaps a hyperactive metabolism?
Interesting report in the science section of SPIEGEL this week, the gastric surgery and the consequences resulting from it, the digestion of a python after devouring a mouse and genetic "switches". It would be too much to summarize here, but if you are interested in more detail, you can invest 4.50 for such a magazine. In short: the gastrointestinal tract needs closer examination, and it should even have an impact on diabetes.
|polyamide|| ||31.5.2016, 14:25 |
Even if the hunger metabolism certainly exists in certain situations, the matter becomes nonsense at the latest when an overweight person who is in a clear deficit is advised, when asked why they are no longer losing weight, that they have to eat more because they are too eats little to accept.
Unfortunately, this is still part of everyday life even here and I'm glad that the people here are slipping in and portraying it as nonsense.
|G315t|| ||31.5.2016, 14:58 |
she says quite clearly that starvation mode only occurs when the KFA of a woman is <5% and that over a rather long period of time
If a woman's KFA is <5%, she is dead or in intensive care with massive muscular atrophy, destroyed organs, and the like "fun" you see in terminal anorexics. There is (hopefully) something of 5% for MAN.
With 10%, individual muscle STRANDs are already visible, so little fat tissue is still available ...
|Amaketone|| ||31.5.2016, 15:31 |
Thank you, good example! That happens when you read too much, you think you are dying ... and the body doesn't even notice it ...
(not addressed to Whatever)
|juniper ....|| ||31.5.2016, 16:16 |
Basic existence of starvation metabolism: yes.
For average-nourished Central Europeans who are not in an advanced stage of anorexia, hunger metabolism is not relevant.
|Lena38|| ||31.5.2016, 17:04 |
G315t Ms. Hermann says "exactly" in her book that the starvation mode only occurs when the body falls below 5% body fat (a little more for women). I am one of the (apparently) few who find this book inaccurate and stupid. But what annoys me the most is your writing style. In Pro Ana forums, for example, communication is just as fundamentalist. But apparently some need that ;-)
|Lena38|| ||31.5.2016, 17:09 |
And before the beating of the fat logic followers comes again: I have just selected the page explicitly and it is exactly there!
|Demonic96|| ||31.5.2016, 17:28 |
PLEASE just buy a physiology book in the specialist book department and not some strange advice ..-.-
|Lena38|| ||31.5.2016, 17:53 |
Demonic are you studying something like that? Do you have a recommendation for up to approx. 80 EUR?
|Demonic96|| ||31.5.2016, 18:18 |
I'm studying sports science (with a focus on sports medicine, research, nutrition and physiology) with a minor in psychology.
It may be a bit complex for the layman BUT if you are interested enough, you can't go wrong with it
Alternatively, this one, definitely also suitable for laypeople, easy to understand, easy to read
|G315t|| ||31.5.2016, 20:07 |
"that starvation mode only occurs when the body falls below 5% body fat (a little more for women)."
Aha so a little more, that's a completely different statement than 5% ...
15% is already damn low for women and harmful to health depending on your constitution. 10% are stage form for female bodybuilders (including missed periods, hormone problems, hair loss and fainting spells) 6-7% are already alarmingly little for men and not suitable as a permanent condition, for women completely utopian.
|juniper ....|| ||31.5.2016, 20:40 |
Demonic, it probably depends what you want. Anyone looking for a psychological approach to get their nutritional behavior under control will not be well served by a textbook on physiology.
After reading the sample pages, I decided not to buy fat logic because it would probably not do me any good personally. However, it seems to help many, eye opener or something.
So I can't see what's so objectionable about this book.
This answer has been removed. May 31, 2016, 9:29 pm
|arcticwo ...|| ||31.5.2016, 23:47 |
Hello Demonic, I just briefly read the book by Dr. Konopka
and stumbled upon the statement that eating cholesterol promotes arteriosclerosis. As far as I know, this has become so generally obsolete. Will he explain it later, or is he really serious? Then the book doesn't seem to be completely up to date?
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|Catinka|| ||1.6.2016, 05:46 |
I think it's a pure psychology book.
The word starvation metabolism is defined in medicine / physiology and describes the metabolic processes in the body that take place when there is insufficient food. Smart diets take these effects into account. See e.g. http://www.dgem.de/termine/berlin2003/lochs.pdf
In order to understand metabolic processes, I would rather access specialist literature. I once read her interpretation of The Biggest Looser Study in the lady's forum and also the original study on it, and she misrepresented facts and misinterpreted things. The book works on a psychological level, so it does the job.
|bodylift|| ||1.6.2016, 06:08 |
I have never experienced a "starvation metabolism", not even with a relatively high calorie deficit. The bigger the deficit, the faster I lost weight. And the fact that I gained weight again was not because of the "yo-yo" effect, but because I fell back into old, unhealthy eating habits. My maximum weight that I had in 2009 was almost 50kg higher than what I have now. That's what I can say about it.
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|sheep maize ...|| ||1.6.2016, 08:11 |
What polyamide writes here.
Otherwise, I have to say that the Internet with its constant war of opinions just tires me.
World peace is more likely than that a good book that offers plenty of well-founded information and has provided the psychological tools for many overweight people to finally lose those extra pounds does not find someone on the Internet who has to badmouth it with plenty of vigor.
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|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 08:26 |
Naming factual and technical deficiencies and pointing out these is not the same as "bad talk".
It was noted that the book works on a psychological level. And that is correct, because the statements made by the Bible writer are, as noted several times, simply wrong, or incomplete and (mis-) interpretable.
It is therefore less likely than world peace that it will never happen that people who are convinced of one thing and are ideologically deluded can and will accept that there are also other views and opinions.
And therein lies the whole danger for world peace, and not in the group of "deviants" from your delusion, sheepmakers.
This answer was removed by schafsmann. 1.6.2016, 08:46
|sheep maize ...|| ||1.6.2016, 08:49 |
Nobody objects to naming and discussing technical deficiencies. See G315t, who is certainly not a particularly big supporter of FLÜ, but also many others here in the forum, even in this thread. If that happens factually, you can talk about it as normal - and I have no problem at all if some statements from FLÜ have to be updated if they are not correct.
But it's different to write things like that:
"The" fat logic "is THE Bible for all obese people and the author is a saint and goddess. She is right."
"Most of all, however, her writing style annoys me. In Pro Ana forums, for example, communication is just as fundamentalist."
UluKai, you are an ordinary troll, and it no longer annoys me that something like you can be found in every forum - I've come to terms with it. But anyone who, like you, tries to provoke as much as possible in every post, I can no longer take them seriously. Keep reading the mirror and do your thing.
|Nawis|| ||1.6.2016, 09:24 |
This is not a forum.
Why should books with the name fat logic be any good? at most for desperate housewives. Everyone can easily do their own research on suitable sites and form their own opinion from them.
|kittyblu ...|| ||1.6.2016, 09:41 |
What I find astonishing is that a simple and logical connection like an energy balance, i.e. that I have to use more than I have to add to lose weight, seems to be such an enormous eye-opener for many that the lady can earn stupidly and stupidly from this wisdom. .. Is really a mystery to me ...
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|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 10:07 |
"It was granted to her, because we would all have had the opportunity to check out all of these beloved prejudices."
That's the way it is. And those who answered without this document have probably also done so and have achieved success without being fooled.
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|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 10:43 |
Chocolate biscuits please. Thanks.
Why jealous? We grant everyone their success, no matter how they achieved it.
I just think it's kind of funny that the advocates of FLÜ are firmly convinced that they have made it ONLY thanks to this book, while at least as many, I dare say, even more people have made it without FLÜ.
Nothing more, nothing less.
|ColourBu ...|| ||1.6.2016, 10:46 |
what is jealous?
|ColourBu ...|| ||1.6.2016, 10:48 |
ah, ok looked it up. envious ;))
|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 10:55 |
is like naked and naggish :)
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|Amaketone|| ||1.6.2016, 11:19 |
For example, I don't even know what FLÜ means (don't have to know because I lost weight anyway. As I said, you can read too much, regardless of whether the book is 'good' or not, the reader decides for himself.
|ColourBu ...|| ||1.6.2016, 11:31 |
FLÜ - Bold Logic Overcoming
|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 11:33 |
"But keep on blaspheming ...
Success brings envious people. "
Mike, that's nonsense.
What should I be jealous of? That would only be possible if I were still fat.
But I am no longer, even without a book.
How you come to the conclusion that others could be jealous is completely incomprehensible.
|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 11:36 |
"But being overweight, TOGETHER WITH HEALTH CARE AND LIFE EXPECTANCY, has strong correlations, e.g. with income, educational level and social status."
That is the weak point of any empirical research.
Often individual points / subject areas are picked out and results are derived from them without seeing them in a context. But it can hardly be done differently, hence the many necessities to revise afterwards.
|Amaketone|| ||1.6.2016, 11:41 |
Anyway, thank you Farbenbunt!
|sheep maize ...|| ||1.6.2016, 11:51 |
It doesn't matter how people talk in the Ana scene, but FLÜ is not a ProAna book and the author is not ProAna either. Such a statement therefore only has the goal of moving the book and the author into the ProAna corner, which is simply reputation-damaging (and certainly also wanted). Incidentally, not only damaging to the reputation of the author, which I wouldn't care about, but also for the willing readers, because it was implied that the only reason the book would be so good was because you yourself were stupid, fundamentalist and ProAna - only "Such" would, as it were, need a book written in this way.
Now that aside and about your positions on obesity:
For me personally, that is completely irrelevant. I was never satisfied with my obesity, I was not doing well or even better with 22 kilos more. And I'm also not satisfied with my current overweight, I want to lose another 20 kilos.
For me personally, this book has brought a lot, because it has thinned the jungle of myths and legends in the area of weight loss considerably - a jungle that has also grown here in this "question section" (is not a forum ...), and was even planted in my head by the FDDB community (80%, starvation metabolism, etc.).
That's why I might even agree if it is said here that the book should be viewed more psychologically than physiologically. But this unnecessary hitting on it, combined with the usual envy debates about how much who has earned with it, that is again typically German, typically Internet - and repulsive as always.
|Lena38|| ||1.6.2016, 11:58 |
But now it's good! I mentioned the TON in the book! This is extremely radical and reminds me very much of the tone / handling in Pro-Ana forums! But some are slowly exaggerating their cult even with regard to this book! Otherwise I am 100% with MissGecko, who has explained the weak points of the book in depth!
|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 11:58 |
"(and certainly wanted that too)."
"This is typically German again, typically Internet"
Assumptions, prejudices, blanket statements ... yawn.
|sheep maize ...|| ||1.6.2016, 12:05 |
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|Lena38|| ||1.6.2016, 12:43 |
"I can well imagine that some people need exactly this clear form of addressing in order to change something. As a person with weight problems, however, it is not uncommon that you react a little thinly to direct words".
I am not overweight. I am very sporty, healthy and in top shape. Not thin-skinned either. I wanted to give the book to an overweight friend. Fortunately, I read it myself and left it. I don't like the TON, exaggerations, one-sided perspectives, etc. of the book! Of course, if you need to kick your ass and don't know that you will lose weight if you take in less energy than you need, then of course it is advisable to do so. And again: I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO PRO-ANA. I JUST COMPARED THE SOUND / HANDLING of the book with relevant forums in which communication is also so cold and radical.
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|Lena38|| ||1.6.2016, 13:09 |
Emma, I answered because I was spoken to. Which defensive stance do you mean exactly? I don't comment on the rest. I like to let everyone have their opinion and belief ;-)
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|ColourBu ...|| ||1.6.2016, 13:23 |
tell me, do you still have them all?
kind of too much time today, right?
This answer has been removed from UluKai. 1.6.2016, 13:37
|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 13:41 |
"I don't think of the book as Pro Ana or anything like that, but I've had to do one or the other
swallow because some unpleasant truth "
Here, too, it is nowhere written in this thread that the book is "pro Ana", only Schafsmann interpreted that in a blind zeal for defense.
It was written legally, the WRITING STYLE of the author is reminiscent of the style that is used at ProAna, but that does not mean that it is claimed that FLÜ is written for ProAna.
Of course, one must first be able to distinguish content / factual, but the FLÜ disciples are not able to do that.
And thus what is criticized elsewhere happens: the book is hyped up to be an icon, the author is perceived as the sole owner of the truth and everyone who defended it so vehemently believed that they could ONLY have lost weight because of the book.
Thus the book itself becomes a MYTH.
And we all know that myths are rubbish.
|UluKai|| ||1.6.2016, 13:43 |
"And with your choice of words (" Faith ") and a set smiley you say so much more than is contained in this sentence in terms of content.
So you let other people have their opinion - but not without making it clear again that you look down on it and that you are amused by it. "
In view of the vehemence and irrationality with which the FLÜ disciples proceed, one would actually rather cry bitterly, but that's not worth the whole nonsense.
You'd rather laugh about it :)))
|kittyblu ...|| ||1.6.2016, 14:18 |
Ha ha with the "typically German" envy debate about merit you mean you believe me.
I am in no way jealous of the lady, but grant her the success with all my heart. Because yes, she did a very good job conjuring up the new diet bible :-)
I was simply surprised that e.g. the realization that it takes a negative energy balance to lose weight or that it doesn't matter WHEN I eat something is so groundbreaking for so many that they are willing to spend money on it.
|Lena38|| ||1.6.2016, 14:45 |
Phew, thank you UluKai! That’s exactly how it was meant! I had already lost my "faith" ;-) Kitty ... maybe UluKai or I were also referring to it. I'm not jealous either. It is also completely a mystery to me why the envy factor was thrown in.
|G315t|| ||1.6.2016, 16:38 |
"See G315t, he is definitely not a particularly big supporter of FLÜ,"
I think every book that helps people to achieve their goal is generally worth reading first. What you take at face value and keep for yourself and implement is up to you. But I haven't read it because I don't need it. I also know how to do it. That's why I was very surprised about this 5% KFA statement for women, because that really doesn't work.
So stop tearing up the book. Read it / or not. Learn from it / or not. and most importantly READ OTHER books. Lots of different books. With many different approaches. Because not every approach works for everyone.
It's like weight training (yes, I know, I take it easy, but you learn a lot there) Just because 25 studies, books and guidebooks say that it is enough for you to grow your muscle into failure with just ONE sentence can stimulate, that does not mean that this also works for 80% of people. Have a look around the studio. Everyone knows what BCAA are, everyone trains according to "Bodybuilder's plan xy" everyone swallows proteins and can tell you that lean bulking is possible because there are X sources for it. And do these people look like it's going to work? ;-) IF all these study results from the great laboratory studies on small groups of people or whatever were actually THE ONLY TRUTH and not just a PART of it, then 90% of the people in the studio would have to be fitness models and not just 10%.
And so it is with the adaptive reactions of the body. It doesn't matter what you call them. There are people who are extremely "allergic" to food deprivation and others do not mind at all. You just have to see what works for you.
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|juniper ....|| ||1.6.2016, 18:09 |
"On the other hand, there are also considerations that being overweight could be a symptom of or even a protective mechanism against stress to a greater extent than previously assumed, and that some of the supposed overweight risks could actually be stress risks."
Interesting thought - I hadn't heard / read that like that before. Sounds plausible to me though.
And I say that as someone who saved himself through puberty with a moderate overweight as a protective layer and decades later (still with moderate overweight) developed life-threatening cardiac arrhythmias as a "coping" strategy.
In my opinion, stress (including and especially the one that you put on yourself but of course also excessive external stress) is ultimately responsible for all kinds of illnesses. Obesity can be an intermediate stage.
|juniper ....|| ||1.6.2016, 18:11 |
That is why I think psychological approaches to weight loss make perfect sense. Namely, the question of why someone eats too much.
If overeating is serving a psychological purpose, there is no point simply saying eat less. You have to get to the cause.
|redchaos|| ||1.6.2016, 21:47 |
So I don't want to say anything ... but the "You're just jealous" card was last drawn during puberty when I ran out of arguments
|Heike504|| ||2.6.2016, 08:02 |
The emotions are boiling up because of a book :-)
I read it too and thought it was good. I also found the writing style to be quite fluent and easy to read. I didn't interpret more into it than it said.
Ultimately, most obese people certainly know that they need a calorie deficit to lose weight. You certainly wouldn't need this book for that.
But I have the impression that the book has simply given many hope that they will manage to reach a normal weight after they have been labeled as "permanent fat" by those around them. In addition, a book about losing weight may not be taken seriously by someone who has never been overweight like a book by someone who knows what it's like to be overweight. And managed to lose weight to normal.
|kati.King|| ||2.6.2016, 09:42 |
Well written G315t, you are absolutely right!
|Whatever|| ||2.6.2016, 12:12 |
My güüüüte, what did I kick; -DDDDDD
This answer has been removed. June 2nd, 2016, 7:16 pm
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